Dan Katka thinks, “Uh-oh, the jig might be up.”
February 6, 2010
Dan Katka has seen many saints leave traditional church and their lives have not come to ruin because they were no longer under the protective "authority" or "covering" of the clergy or the institution itself. They’ve realized they have the same authority/covering in Christ as the clerics or systems they’ve left behind. Uh-oh, the jig might be up. 
10 hours ago · Comment · Like
Karen L Gritter and 6 others like this.
Sarah Culverhouse Ain’t dat de twuth LOL
9 hours ago
Dwayne Doty Heard that ! My Bros n Sis at IC are asking how I will escape the attacks. Others said the power and anointing of the Holy Spirit comes from the IC. Have had a closer walk with the H.S. and have had less attacks. There is freedom in Christ. Interesting too to hear the law thrown at me from IC people.
9 hours ago
Karen L Gritter The institutional people and attitudes were the SOURCES of the attacks, thank you….
5 hours ago
Mark Harris I think people who go to church to be "under the protective authority or covering of the clergy or the institution itself" are going for the wrong reason in the first place. We are called to gather together as the body of Christ to worship collectively, not to submit to earthly authority. And there are LOTS of "traditional churches" out there that focus on worshiping Jesus Christ and NOT the clergy and/or the institution. Be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
4 hours ago
Skip Newby Mark ~ good word.
3 hours ago
Jennifer Morgan Pritchett I always love to see what you are going to say
3 hours ago
Vickie Deppe In 1 Pet 5:5, he instructs the "young men" to be submissive to the older men or elders. Literally, that’s "recently born," so I think he’s talking to new converts here, not men of a certain age. I think if you compare this with Eph 4, 1 Cor 3:2, and Heb 5:12 it would seem to me that the apostles expected every believer to grow and mature to the point that they no longer required the perpetual protection of the elders.
The New Testament church as a whole performed many of the functions that we consider the domain of clergy now: dealing with sin (Matt 18:15-17, Gal 6:1); evaluating doctrinal matters (Acts 17:11, 1 Cor 14:29); and teaching (Col 3:16), for example. In my experience, very few Christians would feel competent to step up and do any of these things today. I think to have a clergy class and a laity class at all, even if Jesus is truly the focus, is intrinsically debilitating to the body and burns out the clergy as well.
3 hours ago
Warren Aldrich I’ve been thinking about the statistics about men and the church. Is it a problem with it not being dynamic enough and results oriented as John Eldreldge argues or does it have something to do with the emasculation of men because of the power structures in some, perhaps many churches.
Recently a woman was describing how she had come to the realization that her relationship to the pastor and the church undermined her relationship with her husband. Sometimes that problem has also to do with the husband leaving the wife looking for support.
Any church, IC or not, can work to support the freedom and work of the Holy Spirit in humans whether married or not.
The jig is up, and the IC is not very effective but I guess it’s too scary for people to take a hard look at that.
2 hours ago
Bill Baker No time to contribute much, but I do need to say thanks for those of you seeking along with me, keep encouraging each other in love.
2 hours ago
Vickie Deppe Warren, I would submit for consideration that it’s not that the church is not results-oriented enough, nor that men find the power structures of the institutional church emasculating. Rather, I think it’s that Christ’s call itself is emasculating, at least for men in our culture.
Think about it…what is prized as masculine in America?Assertiveness, power, accumulation of material goods, sexual conquest, success, independence. But what does Christ call us to? Meekness, self-sacrifice, generosity, purity, interdependence…characteristics that are typically ascribed to women.
Groups as diverse as Christians for Biblical Manhood & Womanhood and The Council for Biblical Equality agree that Eldrege’s theology contains some heretical elements and his hermenutic is poor. When theologians from both ends of the spectrum unite to denounce someone’s theology, I think we really need to sit up and take notice of that.
about an hour ago
Warren Aldrich Good thoughts, Vickie. I think that Christ’s call is for the heroic but in the sense carrying out what you described; Meekness, etc.
Based on four churches I’ve been in and the sense I get of others, if men look to model themselves on the leadership of churches and the leadership of Jesus, they are going to be mightily confused because they can be so different.
Re; John Eldridge, I’m afraid that when opposite ends of the spectrum combine in criticism I have to wonder if that means the criticized are somewhere near the truth.
I’m also very leery of anyone that "denounce(s)". That by definetion puts them in opposition to the characteristics of Christ you listed.
He at least hit something that lives in men’s hearts, I think, mine included.
about an hour ago
Vickie Deppe "Denounce" is my word, so please don’t reject what these other folks have said because of that. (When heresy is in view, though, I think it’s perfectly legitimate in light of texts like Titus 1.) Here are some links you might be interested in if you’d like to hear what they have to say for yourself:
http://www.ouruf.org/d/cvt_wildatheart.pdf
http://www.intervarsity.org/mx/item/5602/download
http://www.cbmw.org/Resources/Book-Reviews/Wild-at-Heart-by-John-Eldredge
http://www.gforceministry.com/book_review%20wild%20at%20heart%202.htm
http://www.ccwonline.org/wild.html
http://www.psychoheresy-aware.org/wahbkrev.html
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/orrel18.html
20 minutes ago
Tim Burgess Honestly, that people are calling John Eldrege a heretic, I find offensive and ridiculous. People need to grow up.
I’ve read (at least two of) his books and one thing’s for sure: he’s not telling men to go and get in fights or anything ridiculous like that. In fact, he even makes note of that, basically saying: I’m not telling you to be a man that you need to go smoke, curse and such and such.
21 minutes ago
Tim Burgess People also, after hundreds of years, deemed Origen (a famous “Church Father”) a heretic (or, at least, his teachings) because he believed in the universal restoration of all mankind through Christ. (Which also happened to be the beliefs of many other “Church Fathers”.) Most Christians today would also call him a heretic, but surely he had a more wonderful view of God and the power of Christ than most believers on Earth do today.
15 minutes ago
Vickie Deppe Tim, I’m sorry I’ve offended you. I am not trying to judge Eldredge as a person, but his teachings represent a significant departure from the historic, orthodox teachings of the church regarding the divine attibutes of God, and the doctrine of the atonement. And his hermeneutic is demonstrably unsound.
I would suggest also that throwing around disrespectful comments like “grow up” does little to commend your argument. I am old enough to be your mother. I am grown up.
a few seconds ago
Barna and Viola have a wonderful take on “spiritual covering” and the roles of men and women in the “church”. I’m so glad somebody finally freed ALL OF US from the letter of the law and what was “culturally” current. I am so completely free to be out of the teachings of the IC when it comes to this topic. AS IF we weren’t “adults” and had the ability to discern for ourselves what is heresy and not. I lived most of my female life in bondage to “roles” that had nothing to do with christianity and living the abundant life. I can never go back as Paul said ” Who has bewitched” you?”
Darin Hufford has a great blog on ” Backup Verse Theology” at freebelievers.org. We need to stop interpreting the Bible from a 2000 year old culture and get to it’s “heart” of the matter.
Great posts & interesting a site :-p.